Author Topic: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.  (Read 27550 times)

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Offline Mossbridge

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2008, 07:26:12 AM »
Last week I attempted to post quite a long piece on here with regards to the problems you are experiencing with your car ..... but unfortunately I had computer problems and my post didn't 'take' ! Anyway the long and short of it was to question whether the people who had inspected your car were 100% sure that the short engine was the source of the noise. My feeling is that you wouldn't be that unlucky to get 2 'bad' engines, especially as you have already identified that the serial numbers of the engines are quite far apart. In the comment that I originally tried to post I questioned as to whether or not the noise might actually be coming from the valve train of the engine as this area is where the oil is subject to very high loads and where it reaches last - it being furthest away from the oil pump. Well, today I was looking at some US Mazda Technical Service Bulletins and it has given me a pretty good idea as to what the problem with our car might be. Now the US Mazda Technical Service Bulletin deals with a different engine to your own (it's the 2.3 litre engine rather than your 1.6) and I believe the CAUSE of the problem with your engine is NOT the same as in this TSB, but that the problem with your engine is with the SIMILAR item (Note, NOT the SAME item) fitted to your car. The US Mazda Technical Service Bulletin deals with problems with the variable valve timing gear ..... Well I remember several years ago now one on the television consumer programmes 'getting onto the backs' of FIAT and/or FIAT group cars with regards to failure of the camshaft variators which actuated the variable valve timing on the FIAT engines. These were failing due to, I think, the very fine oil ways in the camshaft variator becoming blocked with, I believe it was, oil 'lacquer'. When this happened the engine sounded like a tractor/diesel. This I think may be what is happening with your car - I mean, not necesarily that the problem is with the oil ways into the variable valve timing mechanism being blocked with oil 'lacquer', but that the mechanism/actuator for the variable valve timing has failed. Anyway the link to the US Mazda TSB is as follows:

http://www.finishlineperformance.com/pdf/cx7/bulletin/01-002-08-1896.pdf

Unfortunately the link for the online maintenance manual is down at the moment as I was going to have a look  to see if there was some more information about the operation of the variable valve timing actuation method.  My idea may of course be wrong, but it might be worth 'floating' it to the dealer who is trying to resolve the problem with your engine.

   

Hello Bayonne,

Very good of you to devote so much effort to our car's problem; it'e very much appreciated.

You are right to question the origins of the noise and, as I think I stated some ago, my original opinion (based upon a life-time of involvement with everything mechanical), was that the sound was more akin to big or small-end knock.  Note that this was also the view of two Mazda US chaps when they played my sound file not too long ago.  Going back to the first visit by Mazda's own specialist, however, his opinion was most definitely that of piston-slap, adding that he had heard that noise before on the M3.  When I suggested my thoughts, he said that I was wrong, and that the noise was definitely piston-slap. 

He also went on to explain that an engine suffering piston-slap may run into the 100k range without issue, but that Mazda's resolve was installation of a short-engine.  A new car had already been refused (wrongly, in my opinion), and so I insisted that at the very least, a full power-unit should be fitted, to avoid invading the integrity of the engine.  This was flatly refused by Mazda UK (in writing).

The plethora of responses I am receiving from my posting on the HonestJohn forum does, to some extent, reflect at least part of what you suggest; i.e. oil viscosities, lubrication not reaching (or falling away from) vital parts at start-up.  All of the suggestions are extremely plausible and logical.  While each of them is much appreciated, though, I shouldn't need to be delving into these areas on Mazda's behalf (for over a year now).

I concur wholeheartedly that the chances of finding the same issue on two engines borders on the astronomical.  Indeed, that has always been an essential component of my complaint against Mazda/MotorWorld, but one which Mazda still refuses to comment upon. 

At the time of writing this response to you, the respective Managing Directors at both Mazda UK and Mazda EU (Germany) have both elected not to respond to my Recorded Delivery letters to them, in which I ask for a resolve to this long running issue.  Both have been directed to the vid files on You-Tube.  Chris Twine (Mazda UK) replied to say that he can not detect a problem with our car's engine when listening to the You-Tube files.

While I could start 'experimenting' with oil viscosities, sonic detection etc, I'm not about to.  If Mazda continues its head-in-the sand stance, the only resolve, unfortunately, is litigation.  A real shame, but an even bigger disappointment.

Many thanks for your thoughts.

Best regards,

Offline daiking

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2008, 10:09:21 PM »
Mossbridge,

I don't know if this information is any help to you now but after speaking to a mazda tech, there is a TSB or 2 for the 1.3 engine (new mazda2?) for piston slap.

Offline Mossbridge

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2008, 07:04:05 AM »
Mossbridge,

I don't know if this information is any help to you now but after speaking to a mazda tech, there is a TSB or 2 for the 1.3 engine (new mazda2?) for piston slap.


Hello again, Daiking,

Sincere thanks for that information.  I'm tied up today, so will have to trawl the 'net this evening.

By the way, I had a mail from Mazda UK yesterday, saying that they are in the process of arranging for the local Mazda dealer here in CZ to inspect the car again under cold-start conditions.  The last occasion they did this, they simply took the car away and let it idle for two hours; not in any way a test for piston-slap, as I'm sure you will agree. 

On this occasion, however, I have insisted that I leave the car parked with them over-night, but that I retain the key.  We will then meet the following morning and I will start and load the engine for them.  I'll update you on the outcome.

Again, my thanks to you and your forum members for the help received to date.

Best regards,

Offline Mossbridge

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2008, 07:17:38 AM »
Mossbridge,

I don't know if this information is any help to you now but after speaking to a mazda tech, there is a TSB or 2 for the 1.3 engine (new mazda2?) for piston slap.


Daiking,

Just responded to this, but it occurred to me after I posted and shut-down, that your Mazda Tech might be willing to offer an unbiased 'anonymous' opinion of the noise made by my car on the You-Tube links supplied?  If he/she doesn't want to become involved, that's fine, but an impartial assessment by a trained Mazda person would be very welcome.

Best regards,

Offline mazdazoom

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2008, 09:53:56 AM »
Ive just viewed your youtube videos and brings back memories of my 54 plate mazda 3. it used to have the same noise for a few minutes at startup on really cold mornings as well. i had a friend in the know have a look at it  and worked out that the noise isnt coming from the engine as such but the injectors. something to do with the pulse of the injectors. aparantly the mazda 3 ecu does something with the pulse rate to acheive a smooth tickover and meet emissions standards. my new 3 has only a very slight hint of the same noise but im taking that to be changes in the setup as the new 3 has lower co2 emissions. either way i had no problems  whatsoever with the engine of my old car and it provided 25 thousand miles of 100% reliable. i hate to say it but from your youtube links i think the noise your hearing is normal for the mazda 3 on very cold startups.
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Offline neeldub

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2008, 01:14:23 PM »
i hate to say it but from your youtube links i think the noise your hearing is normal for the mazda 3 on very cold startups.

like i said previously, even my engine makes this noise on cold morning starts.. but vanishes as soon as the engine warms up. in mossbridge's case.. the noise is constant. so definitely something wrong in the engine.. have mazda not offered to try another engine in the car?  ???
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Offline Mossbridge

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2008, 02:00:29 PM »
 i hate to say it but from your youtube links i think the noise your hearing is normal for the mazda 3 on very cold startups.
[/quote]

Hello MazdaZoom,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Two things you've missed, unfortunately, the first being that the noise occurs at start-up from cold, but the temperature doesn't necessarilly have to be a 'really cold morning'.  As stated some time ago, there have been times in the Summer when our nearest neighbour took the time to tell us that he could hear a real knock from our car.  Bear in mind that in CZ, typical Summer days are very warm; up to 42C!

The second thing is that the noise does not disappear quickly as you describe; I only wish it did! 

By far the most important aspect, though, is that the noise is most definitely metal-on-metal.  If you heard the noise in reality, you would dismiss immediately any thoughts of injector-related sounds, believe me.

In fairness to your assessment, the handycam we have used does tend to 'muffle' sounds (not just of our car, but in general).  Unfortunately, ours doesn't have facility for an external microphone.  However, the .wav files I recorded on our digital voice recorder go some way towards the reality of the sound.  I'll attach one again and, if you feel inclined, would appreciate your assessment of same.

Regards,



[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline Mossbridge

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2008, 02:12:13 PM »
i hate to say it but from your youtube links i think the noise your hearing is normal for the mazda 3 on very cold startups.

like i said previously, even my engine makes this noise on cold morning starts.. but vanishes as soon as the engine warms up. in mossbridge's case.. the noise is constant. so definitely something wrong in the engine.. have mazda not offered to try another engine in the car?  ???

Hello NeelDub,

Just done a quick reply to MazdaZoom, but didn't notice yours; apologies.

Your reply to MazdaZoom hits the nail on the head; many thanks. 

No, Mazda have not offered to try a third engine in my car.  You have to remember that they still insist that there is nothing abnormal about the noise made by my car.  Mazda UK were sent the You-Tube links and, far earlier, sound recordings made as long ago as the early part of last year.  Chris Twine has consistently responded to say that he can not detect anything unusual, and that recorded sound is difficult to analyse in any event. 

If we were talking about a simple tick (as in yours) or something much less pronounced, then I might have some sympathy for Mr Twine's comments.  But you have heard the same audio tracks as those sent to Mazda UK, so I leave you to judge for yourself the thinking behind those denials.

Best regards,


Offline neeldub

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2008, 03:50:31 PM »
if mazda uk still wont budge.. then i would suggest starting legal proceedings againts them.. if thats the only way they are going to do something about it.. are the Office of Fair trading (OFT) helping you in this matter? try to get in touch with them and see how they can help you out. i'm more than welcome to be a witness of yours in this case :)
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Offline Mossbridge

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2008, 05:02:54 PM »
if mazda uk still wont budge.. then i would suggest starting legal proceedings againts them.. if thats the only way they are going to do something about it.. are the Office of Fair trading (OFT) helping you in this matter? try to get in touch with them and see how they can help you out. i'm more than welcome to be a witness of yours in this case :)

Hello again, NeelDub,

That's extremely good of you.  A shame you don't work for Mazda!!!!

FYI, I dealt with and subsquently excluded the OFT very early on in this issue.  They advised that the car is covered under warranty, but that if I thought there was a manufactured issue (i.e. piston-slap), then the only recourse was employment of a Technical Expert with a view to litigation.  They didn't tell me anyting I hadn't used or cited already, and ignored completely the fact that I had asked for the car to be changed within 14 days of taking delivery (which, as far as I was aware, was well within the accepted rejection period).

From the very many subsequent exchanges with Mr Twine and, of course, Mr Tim Glanvill, Dealer Prinicipal at MotorWorld, Swindon, I realised that litigation was looking more and more like my only recourse.  That in mind, I contacted a random number of vetted Expert Witnesses from the UK Register of same, and have been following their respective advices since.

One such Expert advises the ability to determine the effects of piston-slap (if detrimental damage is being done), by analysis of the engine-oil (i.e. traceable microscopic particulates).  This is why I insisted that the local (CZ) dealer retain and seal the drained oil from the sump during the car's first service a couple of weeks ago, which they did.  I have only recently received (from Mr Glanvill) the requested identity of the oil that MotorWorld used following the life-threatening 'repairs they made while changing the first engine.  That oil is sealed and ready for analysis, and we will probably deliver it personally when we return to the UK in March, rather than risk shipment.

I had hoped not to have to go down that route, though NeelDub, and have given Mazda UK/MotorWorld more than enough time and space to 'do the right thing'.  Upon receipt of Mr Glanville's mail yesterday (stating that he had no intentions of assisting and that there was, in Mazda's opinion, nothing wrong with our car), I instructed our Solicitor in the UK to give some thought to their initial actions.  Just moments after doing so, however, I received Mr Twine's mail, saying that he was in the process of arranging for the local (CZ) dealer to inpect our car again under cold conditions.

In short, it's waiting to happen, NeelDub, but is dependent entirely upon Mazda UK's offer when they hear the noise in reality (which is undeniably worse than that heard on You-Tube). 

What Mazda UK have missed thoughout, is that had they simply held up their hands and said, yes, we've got a problem, but we'll sort it, none of this needed to happen in the way that it has.  A bit of understanding and an iota of professionalism would have made all the difference in the world.  In my profession, I am the first to admit that nothing mechanical is ever flawless; it can't be.  But in my opinion, in supporting the slip-shod actions of one dealer, they have backed a losing horse and it's a real shame, because the car is a nice ride, spacious and comfortable (unexplained failed shock-absorbers permitting).  However, it's let down by a disappointingly shabby managerial philosophy which is, in my sincere opinion, reminiscent of the Leyland thought processes I thought had long gone.

Your offer is very mcuh appreciated, NeelDub.  Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

Best regards,




Offline daiking

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2008, 07:30:59 PM »
Daiking,

Just responded to this, but it occurred to me after I posted and shut-down, that your Mazda Tech might be willing to offer an unbiased 'anonymous' opinion of the noise made by my car on the You-Tube links supplied?  If he/she doesn't want to become involved, that's fine, but an impartial assessment by a trained Mazda person would be very welcome.

Best regards,

I did point him in the direction of this thread but unfortunately didn't get an opinion on the noises and I didn't want to push him on the matter. He did say that in the 3 yrs or so he's worked on them he's only seen one replaced 1.6 engine and then was through a lack of oil (abuse rather than mechainal failure most likely) but it was still replaced under warranty.   

Offline Mossbridge

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2008, 07:42:50 PM »
I did point him in the direction of this thread but unfortunately didn't get an opinion on the noises and I didn't want to push him on the matter. He did say that in the 3 yrs or so he's worked on them he's only seen one replaced 1.6 engine and then was through a lack of oil (abuse rather than mechainal failure most likely) but it was still replaced under warranty.   
[/quote]

Daiking,

Understood.  Many thanks for trying.

Best regards,

Offline barney

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2008, 02:58:48 PM »
My 1.6 Mazda 3 does this, particularly on cold mornings. It normally goes within 30 seconds of driving, however it's not great and it sounds awful. I always assumed it was something to do with the engine being 16 valve as I recall an older car with a 16v engine being noisey on start up for a few seconds.

My car is an 04 plate but has 6 months of Mazda used car warranty, is this something I should be pursuing with Mazda? I do 24,000 miles a year and can't have the engine going bang in the next few years (mileage currently 36k)??

Ps. Mossbridge I saw your post on Honest John but wasn't sure if it was the saem sound until I heard the YouTube clip!

Offline Mossbridge

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2008, 11:47:43 AM »
My 1.6 Mazda 3 does this, particularly on cold mornings. It normally goes within 30 seconds of driving, however it's not great and it sounds awful. I always assumed it was something to do with the engine being 16 valve as I recall an older car with a 16v engine being noisey on start up for a few seconds.

My car is an 04 plate but has 6 months of Mazda used car warranty, is this something I should be pursuing with Mazda? I do 24,000 miles a year and can't have the engine going bang in the next few years (mileage currently 36k)??

Ps. Mossbridge I saw your post on Honest John but wasn't sure if it was the saem sound until I heard the YouTube clip!

Hello Barney,

Sorry to hear about your car's problems.  In reply to your direct question as to whether the noise is something to worry about, I can only give my own view-point on this, which is, yes, you should be worried about it. 

In the months since starting this thread, I've come to learn that a wide variety of Mazda engines tend to have this knock when started from cold, albeit to a greater or lesser degree on each car.  As the responses to my thread have illustrated, though, some owners are prepared to accept piston-slap as being part and parcel of the Mazda engine.  If they're happy to live with that noise, then that's up to them, but I certainly was not.

The feed-back received from the Expert Witnesses I contacted support my view that piston-slap should never occur in any engine, least of all, a new engine. Some of the respondees to my thread don't agree and consider piston-slap to be tolerable.  All I can say in argument is that when I motor across Europe at high-speed (which I do often), with cars flying past me at infinitely greater speeds, I found it very difficlut to relax in the knowledge that one or more rattling pistons was not about to shatter.  Again, others seem quite happy not to worry about such things.

I am happy to inform you (and especially NeelDub and Diaking) that my long-running battle with Mazda UK is at an end.  They eventualy complied with my requests and, after handing over my full purchase price, less a small amount for mileage, but plus an amount for compensation, the car was shipped off to the UK yesterday.

Mazda UK could (and should) have done this right at the beginning, and would have saved themselves and me a great deal of time and money.  For whatever reason, their decision not to comply did not change until I contacted the Director of Mazda EU, coupled with instatement of a few sample recordings of the engine noise/video onto You-Tube.  I plan to remove those files this week, as my own battle with Mazda is over.

I hope you are able to resolve your own situation with a little less aggravation! 

Daiking/NeelDub, sincere thanks for the help and support received throughout.  It was much appreciated.

Best regards,

Offline Stuno1

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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2008, 12:45:11 PM »
Anyone noticed this on their MPS?
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Re: Piston-Slap, Mazda-3 Katano 1,600cc Petrol.
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2008, 12:45:11 PM »