Author Topic: what tyres?  (Read 9340 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Engineer Andy

  • TS2 Class
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Gender: Male
  • Smoke me a kipper - I'll be back for breakfast!
  • Body: Saloon
  • Colour: Sunlight Silver (22V) Metallic
  • Engine: 1.6L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: TS2
  • Year: 2005
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2018, 07:10:15 PM »
Essentially with tyres you get what you pay for, and I would never go for budget brands (often called ditch-finders for good reason) as they either wear quickly so they can get good grip due to the use of softer rubber compunds than more expensive tyres, or are harder to get the longer life, but at the expense of wet grip and handling.

From the reviews I've read on the tyrereviews website thus far (discounting all those with less than 2k miles on them and very different sized tyres to you 215/45 R18Ws - a waste of time on those reports with low mileages under their belts), I would say that the Landsails are biased towards the softer compound side - their life and abilities often seems to depend on the car (FWD, RWD or 4WD and performance level) and how and where the driver drives their car.  It might be worth checking the (admitedly limited) reviews for the Mazda3 (2014-) on:

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyres_For/Mazda/3-2014.htm

Not too good results (% wise) for the Dunlops on 18in rims or the Landsails, but the review for that was only a few hundred miles and no details.

or by tyre size:

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre-Size/18-Inch-Tyres/215-45-18-Tyres.htm

Unfortunately having the latest gen 3 means it has unusual tyre sizes (even the 16in shod versions) which are vastly more expensive for mid and premium brands than the more 'standard' 16in and 17in shod mk1s and mk2s that preceded them, especially the Sport versions.  The Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 2 might do (its a quiet tyre according to the EU test label at 69dB), but again its not cheap at about £125 each plus fitting from Blackcircles.  Most on that website seem to be over £100 except for another cheapo Chinese make, Nanking (£80), which doesn't even get any reviews on tyrereviews/co.uk.  I'd bite the proverbial bullet and go for quality, given tyre are the only bit of contact between the car and the road.

Might be worth a call to your local Mazda dealership to see if they can source some decent 18in tyres for you, especially as they will get in many of your size for replacements.  You never know - they might be cheaper than online for the more upmarket ones if they are rare.  They weren't for my 195/65 R15s or previous 205/55 R16s, but they are both very common tyre sizes and dealerships don't get much work replacing them - I did find my local one was cheaper on the fitting at £10 each than via Blackcircles (£13.20 each), minus the P&P charge of £11.50 total.  Sometimes some of the online dealers as well as the Kwik Fits (I wouldn't recommend them) of this world offer significant deals on certain brands for a few days/weeks - you might get lucky, especially if you can find one to have them couriered to you cheaply and fitted at a good garage for a reasonable price.


Offline bobmax

  • TS2 Class
  • ***
  • Posts: 175
  • Gender: Male
  • Body: Hatchback
  • Colour: Deep Crystal Blue Metallic (42M)
  • Engine: 2.0L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: SE L Nav
  • Year: 2014
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2018, 07:39:57 PM »
I'm not sure can agree with what you say about budget tyres.
I had all 4 budget ones fitted to my previous car, and they lasted much better/longer than the Pirrelli's I had when the car was  new. :P
Familiarity breeds contempt - and children

Offline StevenRB45

  • MPS Class
  • *****
  • Posts: 886
  • Gender: Male
  • Suzuki and Fiat Refugee
  • Body: Hatchback
  • Colour: Crystal White Pearl (34K) Metallic
  • Engine: 1.6L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: TS2 Takuya
  • Year: 2011
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2018, 08:43:07 PM »
I threw away 2x landsails LS588 with 6mm on them. If all you want is something that's legal they are fine however they were rather noisy and not particularly grippy.  Given the size it's not going to be particularly dangerous as they have a lot of contact patch and weren't too bad at aquaplaning.

Given they had 6mm and they'd been on two years + I suspect they are rock hard (although they were on the rear). Only ever got sideways on them once and that was with assistance from some diesel on the road.

Budget/versus premium is bit blurry in big tyres, I had an uno on 135s once and budget tyres made it lethal but on bigger tyre sizes the contact patch masks the deficiency in grip at normal speeds. For round the doors they are fine if a bit noisy, it's not until you do something a bit extreme or out of the ordinary that the differences come into play. I'm thinking things like a swerve in a wet road..braking in deep water, finding yourself travelling into a tightening corner with a few too many mph on.

The budgets tend to last longer the performance tyres are softer and grippier, probably depends on driving style as to what you want. Will say throwing the Landsails and the old Toyos my car had on it in the bin transformed the feeling of the car in wet weather.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 08:53:31 PM by StevenRB45 »

Offline Engineer Andy

  • TS2 Class
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Gender: Male
  • Smoke me a kipper - I'll be back for breakfast!
  • Body: Saloon
  • Colour: Sunlight Silver (22V) Metallic
  • Engine: 1.6L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: TS2
  • Year: 2005
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2018, 06:02:55 PM »
I'm not sure can agree with what you say about budget tyres.
I had all 4 budget ones fitted to my previous car, and they lasted much better/longer than the Pirrelli's I had when the car was  new. :P

As Steven and I said, budget tyres come in two flavours, generally: a) soft, grippy, quiet tyres that perform similarly to mid-range and premium tyres, but don't last very long, and b) hard compound tyres which work fine in the dry, are a bit noisier than average and have poor grip in the wet.  Obviously sometimes the end product can vary, with some budget tyres being not that bad and some premium tyres (as I found out when I nearly lost control going round roundabouts with my OEM Bridgestone ER30s [still 4-6mm of tread left but 6yo] which also got VERY noisy) not being that good.

Its why I find its well worth reading a good amount of the group test reviews for tyres AND user reviews (as long its for a reasonable mileage) on the likes of tyrereviews.co.uk.  Some tyre work great on one car and rubbish on another, and yet to the average Joe in the street there's very little difference between the cars, so if they only read one review or test, they'd either buy into or dismiss that tyre.  One thing I've gleened over the years is that, for the most part, OEM tyres aren't that suited to the cars they are fitted to.  A shame really, as a better pairing of wheels/tyres (and of a size/aspect ratio that doesn't break the bank when replacing them) and cars would go a long way to selling more of them, even if they were a little more expensive so they could get the most appropriate tyre for that car.

I've only just got my new Michelin CrossClimates, but so far, so good as far as ride, grip and handling are concerned - admitedly not much mileage and only in the dry.

Offline bobmax

  • TS2 Class
  • ***
  • Posts: 175
  • Gender: Male
  • Body: Hatchback
  • Colour: Deep Crystal Blue Metallic (42M)
  • Engine: 2.0L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: SE L Nav
  • Year: 2014
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2018, 08:00:23 PM »
I must've been lucky then :)
Familiarity breeds contempt - and children

Offline djkj

  • S Class
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to update my signature strip!!!
  • Body: Hatchback
  • Colour: Soul Red Metallic (41V)
  • Engine: 2.0L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: Sport
  • Year: 2014
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2018, 09:32:55 PM »
Interesting reading, thanks everyone for your input. I've found a local tyre dealer who I've used before for Uniroyal Rainsport 3 tyres on a previous vehicle. They're offering Dunlop SportMaxx TT's for £129.75 each. That's their web prices. Maybe they can lower that by calling in personally. I'll keep you updated for anyone who's interested and in the Birmingham area and reveal who the dealer is once I've called in to see them. The tyre markers are getting too close for comfort now!!!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 10:02:14 PM by djkj »

Offline moozmooz

  • Sports Class
  • ****
  • Posts: 364
  • Gender: Male
  • Body: Hatchback
  • Colour: Blue Reflex Mica (42B)
  • Engine: 2.0L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: SE L Nav
  • Year: 2016
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2018, 12:37:53 AM »
Just to add to the soft rubber hard rubber debate, it's not as easy as that. You have to look at the carcase as well and how it controls the tyre. More expensive tyres will generally have a more complex/better internal structure.

Why don't modern tyres last?
Once upon a time, it wouldn't have been all that unusual to get up to 40000 miles off a set of tyres on the front, and considerably more from the rears. When I worked at Michelin many years ago, there were constant confirmed reports of people getting in excess of 100000 miles out of a set of ZX's, which had a reputation for being great in the dry and exciting in the wet.
Car suspension systems are better and road surfaces are generally better, so tyres should have an easier life.

Offline Engineer Andy

  • TS2 Class
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Gender: Male
  • Smoke me a kipper - I'll be back for breakfast!
  • Body: Saloon
  • Colour: Sunlight Silver (22V) Metallic
  • Engine: 1.6L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: TS2
  • Year: 2005
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2018, 09:43:18 AM »
Just to add to the soft rubber hard rubber debate, it's not as easy as that. You have to look at the carcase as well and how it controls the tyre. More expensive tyres will generally have a more complex/better internal structure.

Why don't modern tyres last?
Once upon a time, it wouldn't have been all that unusual to get up to 40000 miles off a set of tyres on the front, and considerably more from the rears. When I worked at Michelin many years ago, there were constant confirmed reports of people getting in excess of 100000 miles out of a set of ZX's, which had a reputation for being great in the dry and exciting in the wet.
Car suspension systems are better and road surfaces are generally better, so tyres should have an easier life.

I wouldn't say that road surfaces are better - newly-laid surfaces perhaps, but the large backlog in road repairs, and as a consequence, the huge amount of pothole, gashes and broken speed humps makes tyre and suspension problems more common than they should, given increases in technology as you say.  Use of road humps, and especially the 'pimple' type cars have to straddle are another major cause of premature tyre replacements, as they knock the wheels out of alingment and cause uneven wear, even more braking and accelerating before and after them in general wears tyres more.

Again, all of this isn't helped by the huge increase in the last decade or two of low and now ultra low profile tyres fitted to non-performance cars - low profile tyres wear quicker than higher profile ones and are significantly more susceptible to major (and irrecoverable) damage (including blow-outs) from kerbing, running through potholes etc and over speed humps,despite them having stiffer sidewalls/edge protectors - all of which puts more pressure on the suspension.  Soft riding cars like the Citroens of old with higher profile tyres would then have long tyre and suspension life as the tyres have a far more energy absorbing, cushioning effect, albeit at the expense of handling.

I have a choice between great looking big alloys, low profile tyres which handle brilliantly for a year or two/15k miles or mid-sized wheels with 60/65 profile tyres that look fine, handle perfectly ok (unless taking the car to the absolute limit/on a track) and last 3 times as long and cost 1/2 to 1/3 as much, then I'll go with the latter, saving me £££ and trips to the chiropractor.  The car industry has us for mugs to buy cars with ultra low profile tyres that don't need them.  Similarly, I think that saving some money to buy tyres that grip and handle poorly in the wet are a risk I won't ever take.  If money was really tight, I'd rather pay for mid-range tyres that are far better from a balance of grip, performance, mpg, comfort/noise and life for the money.  Would you pay for a cheapo part elsewhere in the car?

Offline moozmooz

  • Sports Class
  • ****
  • Posts: 364
  • Gender: Male
  • Body: Hatchback
  • Colour: Blue Reflex Mica (42B)
  • Engine: 2.0L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: SE L Nav
  • Year: 2016
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2018, 12:37:48 AM »
The road imperfections you mention will damage tyres, but they won't cause the high wear rate. Apart from 3 or 4 speed humps going to/from home, I'm rarely troubled by them, so I can't blame that either. While many of the things you raise will cause mechanical damage to tyres, none will cause increased wear in an otherwise undamaged tyre.

I've always bought premium tyres, have never required wheel alignment, and my tyres have always had textbook even wear, not because I drive slowly, but because I drive intelligently. But I can't remember when I last had tyres last close to 40000 miles, but it was at a time when tyres were narrower, so had greater pressure on them.

The push towards wider tyres may have had an impact, and there's a school of thought that power steering has a lot to answer for as people squidge their tyres by steering while the car is stationary. I don't do that either.

The only obvious thing I can think on as far as road surfacing goes is the use of surface dressing that leaves an extremely abrasive surface, especially where it accumulates at the sides and middle of the road. If you look at the surface of a tyre that's been running on this sort of surface, it's pricked all over, so could, I suppose, lead to tearing and shedding. But annoying as this chipping mess is, it can't be a primary cause.

Maybe the answer's with the manufacturers. They want to sell more tyres, so they're made to wear fast.

Offline StevenRB45

  • MPS Class
  • *****
  • Posts: 886
  • Gender: Male
  • Suzuki and Fiat Refugee
  • Body: Hatchback
  • Colour: Crystal White Pearl (34K) Metallic
  • Engine: 1.6L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: TS2 Takuya
  • Year: 2011
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2018, 08:12:58 AM »
They started adding silica as well as carbon black in the process, allows them to make a soft tyre that lasts (relatively) longer than it would have if you made the same compound without silica in it. Also lowers rolling resistance as well apparently as although it's soft it resists deformation more.

You would think the sheer weight/power of cars would probably be a contributing factor. They tend to be about 3-400kg heavier  (at least though in some cases they are twice as much!) than they were in the 80s with at least twice the power. There's a lot more force going into the tyre to accelerate/brake/corner than there would have been.

Goodyears that are on were put on at 53k in 2016 been on 2 years nearly put on 13k in that time rears have 7 fronts have 8 (They were swapped at the service last year and I haven't really done as many hard miles this year). I probably could get 40 out of them but I have a feeling age crazing would get them first.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 09:17:59 AM by StevenRB45 »

Offline Engineer Andy

  • TS2 Class
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Gender: Male
  • Smoke me a kipper - I'll be back for breakfast!
  • Body: Saloon
  • Colour: Sunlight Silver (22V) Metallic
  • Engine: 1.6L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: TS2
  • Year: 2005
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2018, 11:55:12 AM »
I managed to easily get 40k out of my OEM Bridgestone ER30s - they had 4-5.5mm of tread left (I didn't rotate them so the rears weren't very worn) but after 6 years' usage they'd gone so hard that they were increadibly noisy, especially on top-dressed and concrete surfaces, as well as getting dangerous in the wet.  The same happened on my previous car (a mid 90s Nissan Micra) with its OEM Dunlop tyres, also at around the 40k/6-7 yo mark.  The Bridgestones could've lasted (in terms of wear) at least another 2-3 years (especially if I rotated them) but could easily ended in me having a serious accident, hence why I changed them.

The later (just changed) Dunlop SP Sport Fastresponse tyres have been great - wear reasonable (about half way down, no tyre rotation as the OEMs) but at a lower 24k miles, probably why they still grip very well in all conditions.  It was really only the air leakage from the corroded alloys and the increased road noise (not as bad as the Bridgestones) that made me change the tyres (and the alloys), so I could esily see me getting around 40k before needing to change had the leak issue not been there.

As regards low profile tyres - I didn't mean that road imperfections cause general wear to a large extent, though, as I said, regularly straddling pimple-type road humps will throw the wheel alignment out and cause undue wear on the tyres, but more that wider, low profile tyres are normally designed to be more grippy and thus don't last as long as higher profile tyres because of the softer compound.  Probably not helped by people driving faster than years gone by, as well as people using power steering when stationary.

Offline moozmooz

  • Sports Class
  • ****
  • Posts: 364
  • Gender: Male
  • Body: Hatchback
  • Colour: Blue Reflex Mica (42B)
  • Engine: 2.0L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: SE L Nav
  • Year: 2016
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2018, 12:42:45 PM »
Steven RB45
The "rubber" compounds used have had all sorts of magic ingredients, including silicones (silica probably wouldn't be a good idea) for many years. Tyre manufacturers are generally fairly secretive about their compounds and processes. When I worked for Michelin, the standing joke was that there were no ground level windows so the only way to spy on the place was from a low flying aircraft. Anybody caught taking any material off the plant was subject to instant dismissal, and that applied right down to a small piece of wire, such was the secrecy. They obviously hadn't thought that somebody might cut a tyre open.

Extra weight and power, unless applied stupidly, shouldn't be a factor. Wider tyres reduce the contact pressure, frictional loads shouldn't be drastically increased, if at all.
Are you sure your tread readings are accurate? New tread depth is generally 8mm.


Engineer Andy
Sadly, I didn't get anything like that sort of mileage out of my ER30s on my Gen1, nor from the Michelin Pilot Sports I replaced them with, so I'm beginning to wonder if road surface texture, and maybe even climatic conditions, could have an impact.

You suffered the same wheel corrosion/leaking tyre problem as I had on my Gen1. This seems to be relatively common and coupled with low/ultra low profile tyres which aren't kept up to pressure, carcase damage and increased wear is inevitable. I have a neighbour with an Audi A4 estate on ultra low profile (rubber band) tyres. At times, the car looks like it's sittting on the wheels.

The pimple speed humps haven't had any effect on my cars - yet. Whether it's because I take them gently, or possibly the profile of the ones I regularly meet, I don't know. I know of someone who hit the same bumps regularly and he swore blind they wrecked his suspension, wheel alignment..... in fact everything up to and including his furry dice.





Offline StevenRB45

  • MPS Class
  • *****
  • Posts: 886
  • Gender: Male
  • Suzuki and Fiat Refugee
  • Body: Hatchback
  • Colour: Crystal White Pearl (34K) Metallic
  • Engine: 1.6L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: TS2 Takuya
  • Year: 2011
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2018, 07:09:31 PM »
Well the information about silica is from several different sources they could all be lying...but general consensus would seem to be it's been a part of tyres since the 90s.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount weight. Momentum is mass x velocity so twice the weight twice the momentum. Tyres are not twice the width in general though some are getting there. Then there's modern speeds to take into account at twice the speed you have four times the kinetic energy, even doing 60 rather than 40 brings a huge amount of additional energy for tyres to deal with.

And finally yes..I used a depth gauge..they had 9 on them when they arrived.

Offline Engineer Andy

  • TS2 Class
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Gender: Male
  • Smoke me a kipper - I'll be back for breakfast!
  • Body: Saloon
  • Colour: Sunlight Silver (22V) Metallic
  • Engine: 1.6L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: TS2
  • Year: 2005
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2018, 07:38:43 PM »

Engineer Andy
Sadly, I didn't get anything like that sort of mileage out of my ER30s on my Gen1, nor from the Michelin Pilot Sports I replaced them with, so I'm beginning to wonder if road surface texture, and maybe even climatic conditions, could have an impact.

You suffered the same wheel corrosion/leaking tyre problem as I had on my Gen1. This seems to be relatively common and coupled with low/ultra low profile tyres which aren't kept up to pressure, carcase damage and increased wear is inevitable. I have a neighbour with an Audi A4 estate on ultra low profile (rubber band) tyres. At times, the car looks like it's sittting on the wheels.

The pimple speed humps haven't had any effect on my cars - yet. Whether it's because I take them gently, or possibly the profile of the ones I regularly meet, I don't know. I know of someone who hit the same bumps regularly and he swore blind they wrecked his suspension, wheel alignment..... in fact everything up to and including his furry dice.

My parents live in an area with loads of road humps - both the standar type and the pimple ones.  They do very low mileage (less than 3k miles pa) and yet they've gone through the equivalent of a set of tyres on both their current and previous Fiestas (mid 90s and mid 2000s versions) every three years or 9k miles.  My Dad's always saying at their car's service a tyre had to be replaced because of uneven wear.  They've now taken to driving the long way round the houses to the shops to avoid all the humps, though its not so easy to avoid the potholes at the local Tesco or on some main roads.

I've probably been very lucky that my car hasn't thus far needed a wheel alignemnt in 12 years - I thought it might've done as I was working in an area for about 10 months that I used a route with pimple humps as a cut through on my way home from work.  Unlike some drivers, I did (like you) slow down, which hopefully helped to a degree.

As regards the tread depth on tyres, I think most summer tyres are either 7mm or 8mm to start with - performance ones perhaps being 7mm for some reason.  Winter and maybe all-season tyres may be higher as they wear quicker outside of the winter season - I didn't check my (all-season) CrossClimates just fitted.  I should've changed my OEM ER30s after 25k when they were just noisy but acceptable (just) in the wet.

By the time they got to 40k/6yo, they were terrible - on some surfaces it felt like they were flat.  I think you're right about Mazda alloys - they seem to corrode quite a bit (mine looked ok on the surface, but obviously something was amiss as all four tyres needed pumping up once a week, and the garage said it wasn't the valves - I did have a problem with one wheel 6 years ago when the previous tyres were fitted, so it was probably that just getting worse.  If the OEM 16in alloys weren't so expensive, I would've kept the existing tyres instead of downsizing from 16in to 15in with higher sidewalls.  It actually cost me less to do that and replace all four wheels and tyres than just the 16in OEM alloys on their own!

Offline moozmooz

  • Sports Class
  • ****
  • Posts: 364
  • Gender: Male
  • Body: Hatchback
  • Colour: Blue Reflex Mica (42B)
  • Engine: 2.0L
  • Fuel: Petrol
  • Model: Mazda 3
  • Transmission: Manual
  • Trim: SE L Nav
  • Year: 2016
Re: what tyres?
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2018, 04:10:31 PM »
I'd forgotten about this :)

Amorphous silica has indeed replaced some of the carbon "bulking" content in tyre rubber, but whether that makes any material difference to the longevity of tyres is doubtful. Why would manufacturers introduce something that shortens tyre life?

I suspect the major factor is tyres being optimised for relatively higher temperatures, with "ordinary" tyres now being referred to as "summer" tyres, and possibly suffering higher abrasion rates in cold weather/climate. Interesting to compare wear rates from the north (real north, not Manchester) and the south of the country.

As for weight, there's no reason to suggest that would be a factor as tyres are sized to the car, so road load should even out. Tyres aren't twice the width, but it's the surfacce area of the contact patch that matters, and that's increased dramatically with the introduction of low/ultralow profile tyres.

Also, momentum's not what you should be looking at. It's kinetic energy.

Mazda 3 Forums UK

Re: what tyres?
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2018, 04:10:31 PM »